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Second in a series of podcasts featuring Peter Moon* & Jonathan Barlow Gee** discussing the Enochian system and time-travel.
TRANSCRIPT PAGE 1
This is Jonathan Gee interview number two conducted by Peter Moon. The date is October 17, 2018. Good morning, Jonathan, how are you?
Good morning, Peter, I’m good; how are you?
I’m good. So, this is a podcast that is very organic in nature because we just did the previous podcast last week, and I want to know if you’ve had any - of course, the podcast is on the subject of Dr. John Dee and his magic, his work, his scholarly works as well - have you had any impressions or feelings since the last interview, Jonathan?
Actually, not on the topic because there was a hurricane that day and it took the power out on my house for a couple of days after that so I was kind of recouping from that.
Well that says a lot in and of itself that the time we had this conversation was just right as the hurricane was happening - which of course it was not happening up here on Long Island - but, you survived it okay?
Absolutely. There was no damage to the structures of my house or any of my friends’ houses so we made it though good.
Well that’s fortuitous and I’m glad to hear that. So basically I instigated this podcast because the work of John Dee is of interest to me because it tends to show up in conjunction with my time-travel research, vis-a-vis Dr. David Anderson. So basically, what had happened - I don’t know if I mentioned this on the other podcast, but - a lady who had been at the symposium on Long Island conducted by my in-laws was from Prague, and she had expressed an enthusiasm for maybe generating an event we were hoping to have in Prague: this was an idea that I’d had last year at the previous symposium and David Anderson had warmed up to it, he was very interested in visiting the Czech Republic, he had some friends to see there; so my idea was to do an event on the work of Dr. John Dee in Prague, so this lady being from Prague sort of helped feed the idea.
But seemingly independent of that, something else occurred in the wake of our podcast and I don’t remember exactly how it came across, but I came across this author - it was actually a video - and I was very surprised to see that somebody had done so much work on John Dee. The man’s name was Jason Louv and I sent that link to you, did you get a chance to look at it?
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I looked through the first few minutes of it, yeah.
What was your impression of him and his work? He certainly had a lot of complimentary reviews from people in the magical field. Jason Louv, L-O-U-V; he’s a prolific author and on the younger side of life, I would say; go ahead.
First impression is he’s articulate; he’s obviously well read and well versed in the modern released material.
Yes, and he received a lot of complimentary reviews. He has a lot of excessive eye-blinking. Somebody who’s deeply threaded with this work I look at them certainly not from just the irreducible minimum glance - what is this person really all about? What’s really going on? Because in the field of magic, as you probably well know, the people who are involved with it are more often than not askew, or there’s something about them or their energy-field that is askew. I suppose that’s just the nature of the beast, at least when one is approaching it from this dimension. I might have mentioned this with Vincent Bridges - who did many scholarly lectures on Jonathan Dee and particularly Edward Kelley, Dee’s partner, where his energy is very askew, although his scholarship is brilliant. As I might have mentioned this privately, but he’s actually taking on the ambience of Igor physiologically as he begins to talk, it’s almost like he’s becoming the golem as he gets deeper into the studies. This of course is one of the greatest dangers of studying the occult is you become the food for the feast, and this can happen with people. But in the wake of listening to this podcast with Mr. Louv, somehow it came to me to generate some Enochian language on my facebook posting; somehow it occurred to me that there’s so much AI out there and other scholarship that I found out you can translate almost anything into the Enochian language now; you can even get proper pronunciations. So what this means is the Enochian language has become put into a pedestrian stream of consciousness; in other words, this knowledge was guarded for hundreds of years and it was also used to manipulate governments, politics, occult secrets. So we’re now in a new age here where this language has been put into the hands of the common man, if the common man is so astute to seek it out. One of my long-term subscribers had made a comment on the facebook [post] that said he had put the Enochian language (that I posted) into google translate and it claimed it was Hindi; and I said, that’s because google has not yet been programmed to recognize Enochian, and I said it will probably figure it out on its own, because google translate gets better all the time - it’s sort of self-correcting. So here we are living in an age - and this is what I want your comment on - where Enochian is moving into the realm of the commoner. Comment?
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Well, I can only comment with a question in turn. Why do you think that is happening? I mean not based on evidence but based on motivation; obviously what you’re describing is a phenomenon that’s occurring around us at the present, but to what end?
Well that’s a very good question and I think I can answer that through the process of analogy. If somebody discovers gold, everybody wants to go at it. Like the California gold-rush, everybody was rushing to California, and in particular the Chinese. So if there’s a rush to build something, invent something; there’s always a rush to get the upper hand. So when it comes to John Dee’s work, this stuff has been studied seriously and intently for many years, for decades and at least a century and probably more. So people take this very seriously and they tend to stay either out of the limelight, or it’s circulated amongst very closed groups. And all of the hard work these people have done has obviously enabled somebody like this character, Jason, to do a full, comprehensive, scholarly rendition of what John Dee had to bring to the table. You can’t let the personalities and whatnot - and I don’t say this in reference to Jason because I don’t know him - but many of the personalities around this phenomena, as I said earlier, are askew, and if they’re not askew, they would certainly seem very askew to the average commoner who would go and approach them or have interactions with them; because you’re moving into a rarefied field when you go to study this stuff. Now, back to answer your question: why is this being done? It’s because of we look at this either astrologically or cabalistically, we have the archetype known as Uranus - which is astrology - in QBLH it would be Metatron (people like to call it Metatron) - and this is an archetype of upheaval, innovation and technology. Uranus in Greek mythology was the originator - he represented heaven, and he mated with Gaia - the earth. So basically, he was a very powerful archetype, constantly creating; he created so much and so compulsively, that an archetype called Saturn - who had the scythe, the grim reaper - and he literally cut the nuts off of Uranus - he castrated him - and he threw the genitals of Uranus into the sea, where it gave birth to Venus. So, Uranus was creating now in a new form - it went to create Venus in what we know as a more conventional form of creation in the context of love. Now, Uranus - even though he was castrated and killed and un-seeded by his son, Saturn, or Chronos - which is time, Chronos in Greek, Romans said Saturn - Saturn was putting a lid on Uranus because, if you have too much creation all the time, it’s like having the comedian Robin Williams next to you every minute of your life: nonstop chatter, entertaining, funny at times, irritating, it would drive you nuts finally. This is why this had to take place. So even though Uranus was killed, he was sort of resurrected and put in the heavens because he had so much to offer. So when you have this element: why is this happening now? You have technology, which not only enables all this stuff to be studied at a much more rapid clip, it applies artificial intelligence and whatnot to make this language translatable, available, and this is why: it’s the technology of the archetype of Uranus is what’s given us this. So we are in new times and I supposed if you looked at the exact placement of Uranus right now might be in Taurus - I don’t follow astrology that closely - so it would be having innovations in earth-based elements. So, anyway, does that answer your question?
Essentially, I guess.
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So, this is the point. See, the language is one thing, but these words are associated with power. So, one Enochian scholar was saying to me in the wake of this podcast, in his opinion this was the language that was spoken long long ago, sometimes identified with Vril, where the power of the intonation - the vibration of the intonation in the words - has a power assigned to it. So if you were to do a spell, or a grimoire (or a grammar) in English, it would have much less power than if you did it in the Enochian language. Therefore, we’re dealing with this power that is used over governments, people, institutions and whatnot is now becoming open-source (this is, I guess, the word: open-source), to where people can go in, and believe you me people will go in and start playing with this stuff, if they’re not already - I’m sure they are; but this is just like the pyramid going - the average person walking on the street doesn’t even know what Enochian is, he’s probably not too interested; but there certainly is a great base of either fans, curiosity-seekers - and many curiosity-seekers in the past go into the dark-side; they dive right in there. This is also an issue because if you have the common person using it, before it gets to them, it’s going to be open for misuse or selfish use by factions that are not so upbeat. Over to you.
Well, let’s say that the technology is proving a floodgate to opening Pandora’s box. I don’t necessarily agree that the Enochian magic is a system that has power over government - the governments of people; I think it’s been used as an encryption system to spy with, so it has been employed by the government at one point, but I don’t think successfully by them. Also I think the technology that’s growing around us now is kind of an outgrowth itself of the Enochian system being a purely elemental cycle that tends to generate massive influxes of energy and productivity at certain peak-periods in history.
Well, that’s certainly an interesting concept and, if you could perhaps elaborate on the idea that the Enochian language is itself generating … this revolution in technology, which in turn makes the language more accessible, decipherable, usable, etc.
Well, if we think about it in terms of language, then the best analogy for Enochian would be as a computer programming code language. It would be, basically, the green code you see in the Matrix movies underlying the probabilities of everything, I guess. But, I’ve generally tended to look at it more as the elements, in lieu of Regardie’s Golden Dawn material which was generated initially by Mathers but was based on Dee’s Enochian system of the 4 Watchtowers. That system seems to be essentially a circuit-board or the hardware on which the Enochian alphabet and the Enochian language are the programming code language or software.
I do recall that you did a very good rendition of the Watchtowers and how they related to the Enochian system, and those are on your videos if you could just give your website again, for the people who are interested.
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Well, actually the best place to find that would be on my YouTube channel that’s also called “benpadiah.” B-E-N-P-A-D-I-A-H. If you just google youtube, benpadiah and Enochian, a playlist should come up.
Good, because this whole idea… What you seem to be saying, and you can correct me if I’m not accurate, is that it’s the elements themselves and the permutation of the elements and all of those different potentials, that either influences or generates the Enochian language itself.
In a sense. I think the Enochian letters in the Watchtowers are kind of like oil on top of water in terms of the elements and the recombinations of the elements, because while the recombinations of the elements to form the zodiac signs is a very orderly system, the sigils that relate to the letters themselves seem to be more random and more original to John Dee’s work.
Well, they got some form of assignation when somebody created the language, and what, why and how - you’d almost have to go back to the original moment of creation and see why it did it that way. What I would say, from what I would understand from the work of Stan Tenan, who basically figured out that the Hebrew alphabet was basically constructed from a 3-dimensional… what was it called?
The shofer? The ram’s horn?
No. It looks like a ribbon that’s twisted. But the thing was, this one single, 3-dimensional character or construction - if you looked at it from 26 different views you got: the shadow showed each letter of the Hebrew alphabet. What’s important, he said, this demonstrated Hebrew was a sacred alphabet, but he also said it applied to Greek and Sanskrit, and perhaps another alphabet, perhaps Islamic - I don’t remember. But in any case, this is the way ancient alphabets were sometimes constructed, so you actually had a 3-dimensional figure or construction, and the 2-dimensional letters were actually initially a rendering of the shadow of the thing in 360°. So this suggests that language, of any type, was an attempt to reconstruct the whole. We certainly see elements of this in the Enochian system, especially as you have laid out. You see that this is trying to help us arrive at a dimensional understanding that is beyond 3-dimensions and it is a comprehensive system. Though I think the most we could criticize the Enochian system is that: number one we can say it’s not perfect, but it is certainly an attempt, because what system could be perfect, and the second criticism is that it would be open to misuse, which is the case with any system. So we can at least say that it is an effort to reconstruct what you might call a metaphor for the entire cosmos and the operating system of the cosmos. In this case, it would be self-generating, self-reflective, and - more to the point, when we’re talking about getting this to the common man - we can say that this is the extent algorithms of the universe getting us in touch with ourselves, because that system is us (every system is us) and it’s giving us an opportunity to flow into the whole, to become part of… and this is the interesting thing, what I know from Chi-Guang, the first thing is when you have a flow of life, you want to perceive the flow, you want to direct or intend the flow and then as you become more capable you want to control the flow, and then you want to create the flow, and ultimately you want to become the flow. So this is an opportunity for the universe becoming itself, and to the degree that we’re each constituent parts of the universe we can share in this experience: knowledge, and hopefully toward the betterment of ourselves and everyone else. Over to you.
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Well, I definitely agree with all that. I think that if we were to look at the elements as being a limited system, and then try to describe the cosmos based on their recombinations alone, we would find a very limited cosmos, and I think it would be very predetermined in how it would act, and I don’t think we find that universally across the entirety of the cosmos so much so as we do locally. The Milky Way seems to have certain regularity - the sun orbiting around it has a certain regular cycle that it follows during our own lifetimes, or during the history of mankind. The earth going around the sun, of course, has a very specific location, and the moon going around the earth as well, and even though all of that does seem to indicate to some extent pre-determinism, nevertheless life on earth does appear to have free will. So, if we’re looking at the programming coding language that predetermines all potential outcomes, then the question becomes to what extent to we have authority over it, or the ability to manipulate it, or the right to do so.
Well, what I would answer there is that, this system that we’re talking about, whether it be the conglomeration or interaction of all the elements, or the Enochian system itself, or any other system - is that it is an attempt by either the god-mind or something emulating that to comprehend the entirety of everything: this is the effort. And I have this in my video, the psychology of spacetime - the10th dimension - that’s basically everything; it’s all of creation, it’s the sum of creation. I was taught as a young child that god was everywhere, god is everywhere; and of course, that was from a Christian reference-point, however, it makes a lot of sense because it’s the sum-total of all creation. Now as part of the sum-total of all creation, god or whatever name you want to attribute to it, can’t necessarily keep track of all of its parts - in the sense that an accountant would. That is a function actually of scorpio - accounting - and scorpio is the sign of power. You want to account for all your creations, and how do you do this? All your assets. Basically, as the cosmo - when you take the solar-system just as one microcosm of the whole, you devolve towards the sun, towards the ego. You start out with Pluto; Pluto is the ruler of the divine energies, known as Kether; and it comes down through Uranus - which we already discussed - Neptune - which is the highest octave of spirituality - into Saturn, Jupiter, Mars; then, you get to the earth, which is where you actually begin to live: whether it’s as a reptile, as a bird, as larva. Then as you go into Venus, you reproduce, and then you have a mind, and that’s Mercury - Mercury is the mind - and that’s basically at (I suppose you could call it) the ass-end of the solar-system; and then, Mercury - once you have a mind - then you go into the sun and you have an ego, and this is how the ego develops: it has to have a mind before it has an ego - it has a point of self-reference, but this is an individuated, individualized viewpoint for every creation under the sun and under the cosmos; there’s this ego, and this ego is only there because it has a mind which evolved from all these other dissensions or come-downs in the hierarchical scheme of the universe. ...
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So, the game - if there is a god - would be to have unity with all of these minds, and you can say god does have unity with all these things and all these factions, but the point becomes where, just like with a body, you have the neural net and it’s all sort of becoming self-referential and it can all be itself - it can’t be everywhere at the same time, it’s only the consciousness that you have can flow, and when you have all of that flowing you have some metaphor for harmony throughout the universe. Then, if you go into the Chinese element system, you have the elements constantly balancing and cancelling each other out in a sort of cosmic dance. And this brings us back to the concept of - we were talking about all the permutations of creation happening - that’s basically what you have is a closed time-like curve, where the end is the beginning and it just goes on forever, then there can be a multiplicity of these closed time-like curves with all the different permutations of existence. Therefore, the only thing we have is consciousness, we have our own individualized consciousness, which is to some degree, egocentric. So therefore it’s only a question of becoming conscious of that which is outside of us, and that’s kind of the game. It’s sort of like: we’re in the game of god; we’re playing that game on a microcosmic level and he’s playing it - or she’s playing it - on a macrocosmic level. I don’t know if I answered your question, but it triggered a lot of response.
I appreciate it. I’m honestly learning, so it’s good. Most of what I’ve studied comes from books; I don’t have very much experience or experiential data in the field of practical application of any of this material so, it’s good to hear from somebody who does.
Well, as I say, I don’t practice this stuff like these - certainly I’ve known people who have - and they take it very seriously, and they will get results. And when I tell you, there are secret societies that are very highly attuned or in control of certain political factions which do use this stuff. And how well they use it, exactly how they use it, I can’t tell you; but it’s taken very seriously. But more to the point where I come into this: I’m interested in this from the perspective of time travel because that’s been my allotted lot in life to try to figure out and pursue. So when I’m talking about words of power, intonations of power - as I’ve seen Dr. Anderson come into my life in conjunction with some of these issues. Now I know I’ve said earlier that in my continuation of the Psychology of Spacetime video series, I will approach the subject of power. That’s the next subject I will deal with when I have time to sit down and compose and create and dissect all of the issues. Now certainly, he deals with the power of governments; I believe he deals with the power of secret societies and secret factions that control the governments. And I don’t think he would have any choice, because he has a technology which is sort of … He has stated that “time is the only…” - you know Chronus ate all his children - “time is the only teacher which eats all of its pupils.” ...
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... This is symbolic of Chronus eating its children, because Chronus did eat his children, Saturn ate his children. The only one who escaped was Zeus or Jupiter, who put the reigns on Saturn, because Saturn was too restricting, too controlling; Jupiter was eased off and let everybody go to Disney Land and didn’t keep track of where they went. So, perhaps he was too generous - that’s one of the faults - and too jovial. But in any case, in terms of the Enochian system or Dr. John Dee, this is an issue which David Anderson has talked about - not in the context of Dee or Enochian, but with regards to time-travel, that this stuff is so powerful and is so prone to misuse - and that any observation into the time-line can change the time-line irreversibly. Now, he says there should be a mortal compass, a committee with a moral compass that would put the reigns on or somehow monitor potential misbehavior. I find this very challenging to even think of as a concept, because we’re dealing now with human nature, and we know from history that human nature is very subject to temptation and corruption. So, therefore, you could put a monitoring board, but are they going to be “yes men” or are they going to be this, that or the other thing? So I think that the construction of a moral compass comes down to the individuals who are basically in control of the system; and here we are talking about the “time-reactor;” who is in charge of the time-reactor, how much control does David actually have over it? He has a certain amount of control. I know at the beginning, he kept his knowledge very separated. I was very impressed when I first met him, and this when the time-reactor was only the size of a soccer-ball, how he said that - when he had all of his research laboratories - “the left arm didn’t know what the right arm was doing.” He kept that very secret. But there is a certain point when he is dealing with certain powers or authorities, whether they be governments, whether they be secret societies, or whether they be the gods themselves - or natural circumstances - that will put a reign on what he can and can’t do. And this is perhaps one of the biggest challenges in dealing with him, because there is perhaps more that he can’t say than there is that he can say. So, we’re going back to what I was talking about, which is: putting this technology into the hands of the common man is not much different than putting the Enochian words of power and grimoire (or grammar - magic spells, in other words, and magic spells that work, I would say) into the hands of the commoner or the common people. If you have - let’s just take “John Q. Public” - who is not necessarily - we’re portraying somebody who’s not too enlightened - and we’re going to give him access to the time-reactor, and the first thing you’d expect is him to go seeking out egotistical and selfish agendas that may or may not serve him in the end and certainly may or may not serve anybody else. So, this means there has to be a restriction or ideally there is a restriction from somebody indulging themselves to the potential detriment of others, or the whole cosmos, in that respect. When you have: putting this into the idea of the common man - if he’s going to go into his own universe and do all this, it’s not going to bother anybody; that’s fine. So it’s almost like, the life-force naturally polices itself: who can access this technology and who cannot access this technology, whether we’re talking about time-travel or the Enochian language and the words of power. ...
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... When we have characters in secret society who have been running things - for better or for worse, and certainly not running everything - they have gotten there through some peculiarity or particularity of their own existence, karma, set of circumstances. So it’s sort of like, what this knowledge does, when we talk about this, is it brings us one step further into the realm of the power of choice. Because the more information we learn as an individual, the more that we can choose our destiny; the more opportunities, the more permutations we can visit, we can see. So if we can go back into a time machine and look at the way things really were as to the way we’ve been told they were, it gives us new perspectives. And I think that’s the greatest beauty of time-travel: is to actually open our consciousness to what could be, what was; it’s one step closer to the truth. It does however bring the potential of chaos and the proverbial metaphor of Pandora’s box to mind, where all hell breaks loose. Go ahead.
Well, I can’t necessarily disagree with that. Based on my own personal experiences I haven’t had any supernatural interference in merely studying the systems as I have; without doing anything practical, I don’t know if there’s necessarily any risk. Something we discussed in the last lecture as well, or rather in the last discussion, was the “Gate-Keepers” concept, and I did want to follow up on that, because the ancient law of Hammurabi was one of the earliest codified legal systems to state a punishment of the ordeal of drowning for anyone who made an accusation against someone for the practice of witchcraft; at the time, “witchcraft” was just unsanctioned religious practice - so if you were doing the spells and chants and foreseeing the omens that the priests would be allowed to, but you weren’t sanctioned by the religion of whatever temple was the deity that you were essentially clandestinely practicing the rites of …
Let me clarify something on what you just said. What was the name of that ancient group you said - and spell it for people if they want to look it up?
From the code of Hammurabi?
How do you spell that?
I believe H-A-M-M-U-R-A-B-I. It’s the name of an ancient Mesopotamian king.
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Okay. And to clarify, you said if somebody put forth an accusation of witchcraft or spells - now I want to clarify that - was it the person who did the accusing or was it the person who was accused would be drowned?
Well, if there was proof given that the person who was accused was guilty, then they would be drowned, but if there was no proof given, or insufficient evidence given, in a trial, then the accuser would be drowned.
Whoa, that’s very harsh. So it’s like, you either have to provide the proof or be drowned yourself. This is a very, very brutal form of justice. So in other words, it’s best to shut up if you cannot exercise power over this spell-giver.
Well, that’s not necessarily the moral that I was trying to convey, but that is true.
Yeah. But what were you trying to convey with reference to this, though? Go ahead.
That’s one of the earliest examples in, at least, written history of “gate-keeping” and the difference between doing ritual magic and doing sanctioned magic or religion. Whenever people have - throughout history since then - been tried or found guilty of practicing whatever ideology or science constitutes the idea of “magic” in that era; they tend to get burned at the stake, or mutilated in the inquisition, or crucified.
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